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No overnight stay allowed
You are doing amazingly well. It may not feel like it but you are. Sorry I haven't been on just recently. You have achieved a lot - signed off from mediation and ready to apply to court. Getting copies of evidence together. All great stuff. With all the dross going on in the background.

I fully understand the distressing scenario of the child saying things like that - it's the bit that gets you the most - the angst over the child suffering. The Mother is trying to alienate her. The child is resisting and staying loyal. Try not to worry. I worried myself sick but in hindsight - the child is finding coping strategies. The most important thing right now is not what Mummy says to her (even though it's evil and messes with her head), but that she keeps coming to you regularly and has a nice normal time and feels loved and safe. As time goes on and she gets older she willl soon learn to separate what Mummy says from reality.

However seeing her regularly is really important as it's when you don't see them and their heads are filled with this stuff that they start to become alienated and don't want to come.

I think your son is doing very well to have any contact with his ex at all. Yes it should be minimal if he can - meanwhile some counselling support may help him learn strategies like detaching from the personal attacks (which are about her, not him - she's a bully).

The only thing I can say is - it's a gruelling and stressful time but there will be an end to it when the court process is finalised and he can be in a position to have minimal contact with his ex and still see his daughter regularly. My experience was that, once that was finalised, the alienation was less. It must take huge effort to keep up all that negativity constantly, and they do it most to try and prevent a court order - once it's happened and they've lost that battle things settle a bit. It'll always be subtle and negative but your daughter will learn what's what.

Some people just want to constantly punish their ex for existing - take away the opportunity for her to use your son as a whipping post. The court order will give him more control and her less - so yes she will be kicking off at the idea! Try and see that as a good thing (in a way) - ie gets worse before it gets better.
Thank you, Charlie, your reply was so comforting. We have the form now but will do nothing until Christmas is out of the way. Christmas has not been much fun for several years because of this but he is lucky in that he normally gets some time with his daughter.
My son has been really depressed lately, very emotional (its hard to see your 38 year old son cry). He said he is crying for the loss of his relationship (she now has another man visiting), that the chap will be daddy, that he is lonely and feels so alone in his house. All he wanted was a family and kids, it breaks my heart. But he is standing up to her now and the anger is also coming out so I tell him to keep calm and focus on the court case which will happen. They have had a big bust up as she had told him he can have his daughter overnight one day a week but she would decide when it would start next year. He asked about a weekend stay and she basically got really angry and told him never to make demands as she was the primary carer. Also that she wanted nothing more to do with him and that she had moved on. I truly hope she is distancing herself because she was using and abusing my son constantly and he needs to cut right back on the contact. I have read a lot about emotional abuse and know the victim needs help to break the tie with the perpretator and, thankfully, at last he has made an appointment to see someone in the New year.
Now I have to find out if legal aid is a possibility as there is conflicting advice out there. I know it has been made hard to get but the mediator said his ex would probably get it as she is on benefits (probably gets more than him!) but its worth him trying. i wish we could help but our financial situation is now uncertain with my OH having cancer and probably unable to return to work.
Thank you for listening and for sharing your wisdom. It so helps.
If your son was a victim of domestic abuse that might entitle him to legal aid. I note that the police were involved so a report from them may help.

Try and get a free half hour with a solicitor.
Hi there , being on benefits is not a reason to be legible for legal aid . Claiming domestic abuse is tho , and that can work both ways as your son has almost certainly suffered a form of domestic abuse also . You must try to enjoy Xmas this year and go to see a solicitor with him for a free half hours advice soon afterwards knowing this is the last Xmas before positive things happen . I can assure you , if you get a court order which you should get , it won't be the ex that will dictate when he sees his child , it will be the judge. Been here , I've been desperate on times too , family are great . Keep him occupied , I'm sure you do , and keep thinking forward. Let us know how you get on .
Well said Tigre!
Yes well said.
(12-16-2018, 11:30 PM)Tigre Wrote: The guys already gave amazing advice, especially about your son possibly being eligible for legal aid. Heres my 2 cents. It helped me a lot, I hope it can help both of you too. Just remember, we have all been in his shoes and it does get better. So enjoy XMAS and deal with this in January. Next year you might even have your granddaughter at Xmas as judges seem to give it to the parent who didn’t have it the previous year, so theres always something to look forward to.

1. STOP DIRECT HANDOVER. Your son should not handover the child directly to his ex if she still abuses him during handover. This is not healthy for him or the child. Can they meet in public instead? Can someone else like yourself handover to the childs aunt? If thats the only choice at the moment then I recommend audio/video record (hidden). She's likely going to turn around and say he is violent and she suffers abuse from him and it will be very hard for him to prove otherwise, and the system is already bias against men. Recordings of her being abusive plus the police report from the past would be priceless in that moment. The court “frowns upon” recording but if it gives him evidence in that moment its worth it. Better to get a slap on the wrist for recording but disprove any false allegations. Besides its very hard for the court to punish him for recording and ignore she is abusing him in front of the child. I filmed my ex abusing me. She was not punished but from that point on they ignored the false allegations as they understood she was in fact the crazy one.

2. STOP PHONE CONTACT. Don't call or answer any calls where she can abuse him and he wont have proof of it. All communication should be in writing. Text messages might ruin his day if he’s out enjoying himself and gets message from ex, and then gets stressed everytime phone beeps so best only to communicate via email. He can even make a special email account only for ex to be organised and be able to check his real email without getting anxious.

3. DONT GO NEAR EX OR CONTACT HER FOR ANYTHING BUT CHILD CONTACT EVER. You mentioned your son might get stressed if she cuts contact and go knock on her door as he has before. Do you know what will happen if he does that? She will say she’s scared for her and daughters life because he is violent and threatened he would hurt her and child etc and her aunts and friends will be witnesses and verify everything she says and the corrupt system will believe her. Unless there is handover DO NOT EVER GO NEAR HER. For handover just go, drop the kid off and leave immediately. Record it and dont say a word to ex other than hello. He needs to control himself and be patient.

4. DONT LET THIS CONSUME YOU. You need to live your life and let this problem only be one small part of it, not the only thing your life is about. I almost lost my current partner because we became so caught up in my exs drama that we stopped talking about us, our dreams, going out etc and spent 24/7 talking about the ex, the unjust system against fathers etc with each other, our friends, at work. Unless there’s a reason you guys need to talk about it like to write a court application/statement, get your opinion on an email he is sending to the ex etc - DONT TALK ABOUT IT. CHANGE THE SUBJECT AND ENJOY YOUR LIFE.

5. DONT THINK ABOUT IT. I had insomnia, was constantly sick, looked and felt horrible because its all I could think about. Now I feel much better. Whenever you catch yourself thinking about it ask yourself -can I do something about it RIGHT NOW? 
If yes- DO IT: Do what you need and then put it aside again. 
If no - THINK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE. Dont get frustrated or angry that you’re thinking about it again, because you will 100s times again, just say thx but no thx I cant do anything about that now so Im going to think about X instead. And get up and go do something else.

6. GET A HOBBY. It doesn’t matter what it is just keep busy and enjoy yourself. That 1 hr when your mind is challenged/inspired instead of thinking about this will do wonders. Your son needs to pull himself together. Yes this is horrible and unfair but that’s life. Its easy to be strong and confident when things are going good. Its in the hard times we need to step up. He needs to do something for himself. And so do you. It doesn’t need to be an expensive fancy therapist theres many different ways. Theres dad groups, exercise, painting etc. If he cant find the strength to do it for himself then he should do it for his daughter. Its not helping her if he is depressed. The Wim Hof Method (breathing techniques and cold therapy) did wonders for me. (google it) And it wont cost you an arm and a leg.

7. FOCUS ON WHAT YOU HAVE INSTEAD OF WHAT YOU DONT HAVE. You say your husband is ill. Dont waste more time than needed on this rubbish. Let him enjoy his granddaughter, son and wife and spend quality time together as a family and make memories. Take pictures and Put them up on the wall to remind you of the amazing family you do have. Your granddaughter will notice the different energy from your place to her moms. 

8. Exs threaten because she wants all the control and him to be miserable. In court she will lose control and it wont be about what she wants anymore, but what is best for the child. She wants your son to be scared and ignorant about his/his daughters rights. Dont give her the satisfaction. Court wont be easy. Dont think just because he has applied its all dandy. With court comes false allegations, interviews under pressure accusing him of abusing her and possibly more brainwashing of the child. But like someone already said, your granddaughter is already suffering now, as is your son, so what do you have to lose? Do you really wanna spend the next 10 years like this? Your son will be destroyed and your granddaughter will have so much trauma. Go to court, she will do everything to stop it but stay calm and child focused and he WILL come out with a court order with regular contact. Ex will still continue because she cant help herself, she is mentally sick, BUT she will have to tone it down.

9. NOT ALL WOMEN ARE EVIL. I have a lovely partner and she has been my rock through this. Your son needs to remember there are millions of women who suffer domestic abuse, rape, forced marriages etc but that doesnt mean all men are bad. And just because this forum is full of men that suffer abuse of crazy women doesn’t mean all women are bad. You yourself seem like a loving mother and kind woman, and his child might one day be a mother and wife, so what example will he set for her writing of all women. Yes its definitely too early for him to start considering a relationship, he is a mess and needs to only think of himself now, and get this sorted first. Maybe it will take years for him to even start dating and thats OK, but meanwhile dont go around blaming all women because that leads to nothing.

10. In hard times - REMEMBER ALL THE POSITIVE OUTCOMES that might come from going to court.
Regular overnight contact with daughter that ex cant stop without breaking the law!
Ex will stop/ at least decrease manipulating daughter meaning daughter will be happier and suffer less trauma Smile
Christmas, Easter, Birthdays every other year with you and possibly fathers day every year too
All handovers at school or a contact centre meaning he almost never has to see the ex ever again! WIN !
1 or 2 weeks holiday stays with daughter a few times per year
A track record with courts/social services etc meaning ex has to at least tone it down
The satisfaction of ex losing control and contact being in the hands of the court instead

Thank you so very much for taking the time to give all that help and advice.  I have only read it once to my son (he is not the best at getting round to reading!) and it will take a few more reads to digest.  My bedtime read tonight!  I think the worst aspect of all this is the obvious brainwashing. It broke my heart when we had her today and she said (when it was time to go home) that she tries to press the buttons to face-time daddy but (naughty) mummy shouts at her.  And she looked so sad.  Anyway, onwards and upwards!  Court is a must and we know it is a gamble.  Fingers crossed he will get legal aid or some sort of help. And his friend, who has gone through the system himself (4 years ago, successfully but at a cost of 12k) has offered to be his mackenzie friend if he needs one.
I am so glad I found this site.  Thank you.
It is hopeful - she tells you these things. I have seen brainwashing to the degree my son forgot his complete 8 years of life with me - but it did revert again later and he does now remember.
Well it was a good Christmas because my son got to see his daughter all over the holiday, including Christmas and New Years Day. And for several hours at a time. Having a new boyfriend may be something to do with it.
As usual there was no planning on her was just a text "you can have her now if you want" and this is done deliberately to disrupt any plans he or we might have. Thats long as we get to see her, that is what matters and we are fortunate in comparison to so many dads and grandparents.
So what went wrong? Well, New Years day was awful. My son spent New years Eve on his own, understandably not wanting to come round to his boring old parents who both retire early. All his friends settled with families. Alone and depressed, thinking about the 10 years of abuse he has suffered at her hands. Coercive and controlling behaviour (and some physical), 6 years living with this and 4 more years separated but still getting icontrolled and abused. Only someone who has been in a truly abusive relationship will understand why the victim stays with the abuser. Very early on, I learnt not to bother talking to certain friends about our situation (I say "our" because we are controlled as well). Friends who say "he should pull himself together"; "why don't you tell her what you think of her" (as if that would help!!). I did once ask her what was going on (when they were together and my son became withdrawn and lost all confidence) and she told me to "F... Off..I have always hated you". Anyway NYD he came round after collecting little one and he looked awful, so down. His daughter had told him she had been at a family party last night with mummy and her (secret) friend. When he took her back, ex yelled at him because there was some dirt on her dress, a dress that cost HER £50! A joke as she never buys anything, his double the amount maintenance pays for everything so she can fulfil her obsession with clothes, hairdo's and tanning sessions. He should be used to this treatment ..we used to get accused of cutting her hair and another time, a more serious allegation, that she had a black eye. My career was with social services and I have done my stint in children & families so I knew to ring the police immediately about that one and they paid her a visit.
She never used that one again.
But when he came back, he was broken. He said he could not go on living like this and that he would be better off killing himself. It was a shock to hear that but I knew he would not do that and he said so for the sake of his daughter. But he has rung the samaritans because he is so lonely. All he wanted was a family, children and now he feels that he is just daddy daycare, seen as a babysitter and not a father. So I rang the police for advice and the female officer was so understanding, really lovely. She suggested we come and have a chat (as we did a couple of years ago) so we have an appointment next week. I said i realised that there is nothing they can do but she pointed out that brainwashing a child is domestic abuse. Problem is proving this. and recordings are frowned upon and not taken in evidence.
As for the brainwashing of his child, it continues. He cannot mention the mummy word or the holiday word or many others because she just goes silent, hangs her head or gets tearful. She told me that mummy said she is to tell grandma or daddy nothing. However a strange thing she said when he was taking her back on NYD is "I hope mummy's new friend isn't there or there will be trouble".
So some positives and some negatives. But Court has to happen this year so we all can lead a normal life. How we are going to pay for it is the something we will have to cross because there is no legal aid (for us or her). Domestice abuse has to be proved and that does not include police records of call outs unless physical violence results in court orders, harassment order, social services involvement etc. That is understandable..if that was not the case, I know his ex would claim she was the victim. Tonight they had another bust up when he face-timed his daughter as he does every night (and which she allows). He seems to think it his right as the father to know what his daughter is doing and how she is and then he pushes to see her...needless to say she blew. He also thinks he has a right to know who this man is that spends time with his child. I am afraid he fell out with me tonight because I said legally he does not have that right. Another turbulent year ahead by the look of it.
Thank you for listening.
It's very upsetting what this country family system does to children. It punishes parents and rewards toxic not maternal mothers, every dysfunctional family should have a key worker assigned from when the baby is few weeks old, this person from the get go should draw up a schedule that is LEGALLY BINDING and call back for updates and amendments every 6 months, during this time any manipulations, nastiness, child use as a token should be severely punished with big fines! believe me people everyone would know how to behave if they knew any manipulations or stopped access for no reason ( if no valid reason proved) fined on the spot £1k minimum. It so easy to change the law to make people stop using those children as their extensions, I don't understand why this government simply wants because it doesn't actually look like they don't care it seems that they WANT this to be happening. Is it those spineless men in parliament coming from homes of nerds where the mother bullies father wacks him across the head every day even in public so young son growing up doesn't know any better than simply seeing as a man and children must be abused by woman, or it is some other hidden agenda behind this? I am seeing these stories and simply cannot comprehend such abuse documented black and white and judge is even scared to punish the mother where really and truly she deserves to have her child taken away and be placed with father. When this circus is going to end, I think we need to do something about it. Maybe riots would solve it, the matter is serious and the worst part of it is that noone does anything about it.

Grandma!!! in order to change things u have two options only otherwise u are going to live lives of hell caused by some tramp. U don't deserve that no matter what

Option 1.

Going to be very hard as from what u saying ur son has already PTSD post traumatic stress disorder. Also it's very likely he developed Stockholm syndrome.
However... From what we see his child mother likes to control and feeds her frustration and ego by hurting u guys for no reason. This gives her supply it is her coping mechanism unfortunately she doesn't wake up and thinks " oh poor people I'm going to hurt them " she just does it as in reaction. Your son should take his daughter and return it as arranged, then next time he should say I'm free this and that day ( could be weekend) plus overnight. If the ex says no, he can simply reply " look I would love to spend my time with our daughter u know ima loving dad but u not helping us here " and not accept the times the ex is dictating. Also should mention " look ex I'm here to do this with u whenever u re ready to treat me like a father let me know " that's it and wait for her to get tire could be one or maybe four weeks eventually I guarantee u she is going to need time off and will say alright pick her up for overnight stay. DO NOT AGREE any other silly times unless there's one or two nights a week ( depending how much ur son wants)

Option 2

Go court, represent urself this isn't divorce case lawyers are not needed my neighbour retired barrister once told me " don't be like others lawyer is needed but not in cases where u can represent urself " save ur money and tell the judge what u want and all u want is to be a father no need for lawyers!!
So apply for court application C100 and get this done I'm 100% sure ur son ex won't allow this to get to this stage she ll try to reach agreement before the hearing. Right now she is nasty ofcourse because she has all the amunition and power she needs which is ur sadness and grief.

If u decide option 1 book mediation, give us some info and I ll tell u how to handle mediation step by step to make sure the ex agrees ( or atleast to most) without causing unnecessary turmoil and drama in meeting room. I didn't know what I was dealing with for couple of years then I finally got my answer 100% accurate also I read plenty material how to deal with this deasese where before reasoning, being kind, trying to comunicate never worked it actually made things worse.

+++++Sorry option 2 if u decided go court +++++

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