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New to CMS
#1
I hope there is some good news/advice some one can give me but I have a sinking feeling I will be severely disappointed.

for the last 12 years I have paid maintenance for a daughter that I do not see.  this is fine as it was decided from the start I would have no involvement. 

Now the mother has messaged me telling me that she is going through the CMS as she feels I am not paying enough to support her and her other children in the lifestyle they have become accustom too. 

I now have a family / mortgage / bills the usual, and the impending letter coming through the post.  the amount of money will go up by 60%! 

It is not my fault she has decided to live in an expensive area where the rent is twice my mortgage, nor spend up to a £1000 on each of her kids at xmas and birthdays!  we spend £250 at xmas on our 2 and £100 on birthdays!

I have done the calculator more times than I dare count, we have considered me leaving my job completely and claiming benefits, self employed, emigrating, splitting up, everything so not to give this witch a stupid amount of money for 1 child.

unfortunately I do not think there is any way to get round paying the figure that this shower of SH&T calculate.  Persecute the people who work 60 hrs a week to live a normal life, then let the work shy scum live of me!

apart from upping my pension contributions, which doesn't really benefit my family, is there anything else that can be done.  I am now clutching at straws and do not know where to go.
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#2
I have PM'd you
Advice & opinions on this forum are offered informally, without any assumption of liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.
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#3
(02-20-2017, 03:19 PM)Upcreek Wrote: I hope there is some good news/advice some one can give me but I have a sinking feeling I will be severely disappointed.

for the last 12 years I have paid maintenance for a daughter that I do not see.  this is fine as it was decided from the start I would have no involvement. 

Now the mother has messaged me telling me that she is going through the CMS as she feels I am not paying enough to support her and her other children in the lifestyle they have become accustom too. 

I now have a family / mortgage / bills the usual, and the impending letter coming through the post.  the amount of money will go up by 60%! 

It is not my fault she has decided to live in an expensive area where the rent is twice my mortgage, nor spend up to a £1000 on each of her kids at xmas and birthdays!  we spend £250 at xmas on our 2 and £100 on birthdays!

I have done the calculator more times than I dare count, we have considered me leaving my job completely and claiming benefits, self employed, emigrating, splitting up, everything so not to give this witch a stupid amount of money for 1 child.

unfortunately I do not think there is any way to get round paying the figure that this shower of SH&T calculate.  Persecute the people who work 60 hrs a week to live a normal life, then let the work shy scum live of me!

apart from upping my pension contributions, which doesn't really benefit my family, is there anything else that can be done.  I am now clutching at straws and do not know where to go.

In terms of your considered income, its your P60 or Self Assesment Gross Profit they look at. There can be issues with Pension Contributions etc, as I am sure Drew will get with you on PM.

Its just your income, not that of your partner, not anybenefits you might get like Tax Credits.
You need to make sure you put in the number of children either you or your partner gets Child Benefit for, as it will reduce it.

What are you contact arrangments, and how are they set out? Increased "staying contact" might be the way forward.

The coment about " I am not paying enough to support her and her other children in the lifestyle they have become accustom too", does any Spouce Maintance Order exist? This is a compleat seperate issue, as only Child Support and Child Benefit is not considered as income. 
If your paying Spounce Maintance (or any money for her), its reportable income, in terms of Tax, Tax Credits, any any other state benefits she might get.
Posts made by me are my opinion and any factual information should be checked out. If you do not have a Solicitor, often your local CAB can get you some initial advice.
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#4
If your ex doesn't work currently all that will change under Universal Credit.

Single parents (even the wife of a couple on benefits ) will. E expected to work part time when youngest child is 3 years old. Then to work school hours when youngest is at school and finally be working full time when youngest is 13.

Universal credit is also bringing a raft of cuts to benefits for almost everyone on benefits. The benefit cap will afffect Housing Benefit and she may well have to pay a large part of her rent but when working full time they will likely have to pay all their housing costs themselves.

I know it's of no solace to you but In a way you've been paying below CMS amount for 12 years and your child is max 7+ years from leaving approved education and when this happens maintenance stops.

This is the thing about tax credits and maintenance, once all the kids have left education the income of the single parents drops, sometimes drastically so! The more they get the worse it is for them. Crazy system.
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#5
(02-20-2017, 09:13 PM)Hazy Wrote: If your ex doesn't work currently all that will change under Universal Credit.

Single parents (even the wife of a couple on benefits ) will. E expected to work part time when youngest child is 3 years old.  Then to work school hours when youngest is at school and finally be working full time when youngest is 13.

Universal credit is also bringing a raft of cuts to benefits for almost everyone on benefits. The benefit cap will afffect Housing Benefit and she may well have to pay a large part of her rent but when working full time they will likely have to pay all their housing costs themselves.

I know it's of no solace to you but In a way you've been paying below CMS amount for 12 years and your child is max 7+ years from leaving approved education and when this happens maintenance stops.

This is the thing about tax credits and maintenance, once all the kids have left education the income of the single parents drops, sometimes drastically so!  The more they get the worse it is for them.  Crazy system.

The changes to Universal Credit are very minimal (about £7 per week in most extreme situations), and are already in place in some Post Code Areas. The website http://www.entitledto.co.uk when checking for benefits, will also check what it would be once Universal Credits goes live in a Post Code.

The Benefit cap is already in place, where Universal Credit is not in place, Housing Benefit is being reduced, so that combined with other income from Benefits/Tax Credits, there award can no longer exceed it.


He has not been under paying by 12 years. In law he had what is called a "Family Based Agreement". We have no idea if he was paying for anything else on top of that cash amount, but the fact is, that he has paid as per an agreement for 12 years, and she has left it till this late stage to challenge it.

Your comments on kids leaving Education means the single parent has a low income. Working Tax Credit (30 hours +) and Housing Benefit can still be claimed if on a low income (Or law year low income in the case of Working Tax Credit).

If the Young Person got a full time job, what pays National Living Wage, then they should come out with about £220 per week. The normal Child Tax Credit and Child Benefit award would be about £120, so the Household is £100 sh per week better off, unless the parent is on a low income on Housing Benefit, when on that amount of income from a none dependent, it their claim would go down by about £40, so it would be £60 per week better off still.

Part time work might create a break even situation, what might be combined with Higher Education (Uni etc), where Child Benefit is no longer paid.

Only the young person not working would create a household loss, as the £120 would be replaced by JSA/ESA of about £57.90, with a deductions of £7 on any Housing Benefit claim.
Posts made by me are my opinion and any factual information should be checked out. If you do not have a Solicitor, often your local CAB can get you some initial advice.
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#6
thanks for your responses, it looks like I will just have to accept my fate, and as so many of my family and friends are saying, "just have to live with it".  fingers crossed my marriage is strong enough to last.

best get saving!
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#7
I never said the guy was wrong to be paying below CMS amount. What I was implying was that if the ex has gone to CMS when the kid was born instead of when she was 12 that he would have been paying the CMS amount since birth which he wasn't as they obviously had an agreement.

Interestingly.

If my son was younger according to the tax credits calculator

I would be getting on my salary after pension contributions of £16,900 the following:-

Tax credit. £37.29 every four weeks

CTC £256.07 every four weeks

Child benefit £80 every four weeks

Let's add in possible maintenance of £200 per month

That would be roughly £573 (more if you convert those 4 weekly payments to 12 monthly payments) coming in because I have a young son.

Unlikely anyone would get Housing Benefit on this income.

I don't get tax credits or any benefits my income is still 16,900 after pension contributions my son is working and pays me £160 per month. ( he earns less than me). This covers food and bills. He buys his own clothes, petrol etc etc

Many years after coming off benefits I still earn below an amount that would get me tax credits if I had a young child.

If my son moved out £16,990 would be all I have. My food shopping would go down approx £100 pm. Electric maybe £20 per month. I'd probably change virgin broadband thus saving £40 My heating, rent, rates (no single person discounts where I live) would probably largley be the same and have to be paid. Water rates here are paid in our rates I would not be entitled to any benefits. Insurance payments would not change either.

I'm very fortunate in that I manage because I bought a house and it was paid off around 5/6 years ago. This obviously has freed up some cash and means I can easily live on £16,900 when my son leaves home.

I have worked out that if I charged my son more than £160 then I would miss it when he has gone. I don't want to go there!

My sons left school at different times and each time my spending had to be adjusted or my hours at work increased as benefits were lost. Increasing hours at work didn't cover the losses.



I think the whole issue is that the amounts coming in for the child is that not all of that money is spent on the child, it kind of goiea into the family pot and everyone benefits from it so it's loss is felt by the single parent.
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#8
Morning

I need some urgent advice / help.

I received the letter on Saturday regarding payments, from the CMS.  I have a few queries :-

firstly they have taken my gross taxable income from the HMRC, this is different to what my month 12 wage slip says, they have actually added £750 on.  any idea why

secondly they state that they have taken my pension contribution into consideration.  do the HMRC have that information and can they give it to them?

Thirdly (the big one), the mother has opted for collect and pay, I have read the notes and it states that an additional 20% would be added to my amount for them to handle the money.  I have her bank details and I have never missed a payment in the 12 years.  can the CMS do this? 

finally they say that I will be looked at annually, does that mean they have looked at my 15-16 HMRC statement and wont look again until march 18 where they look at my 16-17 statement.

any help on this would be really appreciated, at present this is causing me and my family great stress and concern.

thank you
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#9
(02-27-2017, 07:43 AM)Upcreek Wrote: Morning

I need some urgent advice / help.

I received the letter on Saturday regarding payments, from the CMS.  I have a few queries :-

firstly they have taken my gross taxable income from the HMRC, this is different to what my month 12 wage slip says, they have actually added £750 on.  any idea why

secondly they state that they have taken my pension contribution into consideration.  do the HMRC have that information and can they give it to them?

Thirdly (the big one), the mother has opted for collect and pay, I have read the notes and it states that an additional 20% would be added to my amount for them to handle the money.  I have her bank details and I have never missed a payment in the 12 years.  can the CMS do this? 

finally they say that I will be looked at annually, does that mean they have looked at my 15-16 HMRC statement and wont look again until march 18 where they look at my 16-17 statement.

any help on this would be really appreciated, at present this is causing me and my family great stress and concern.

thank you

Firstly mate
Take a deep breath and calm down I know this is hitting hard and you will be in a panic state....like I was. Actually I was furious but there ya go.

I have a link to a thread I did regarding how they take the figures into account. Gross taxable income is in a short definition, whatever the HMRC deem to be income (benefits in kind, company car, BUPA healthcare, stock options, overtime etc) and this is put to your annual tax account and classed as income for taxation purposes.

I strongly suggest you login to your personal tax account Here https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account, this will give you the ultimate breakdown of all the financial stuff, HMRC have taken into account to equate the figure they do. The payslip information will tally with your P60, however the P60 ONLY shows income from employment, such as salary, wages and overtime. It does NOT show any benefits classed as income by the HMRC, and I have a feeling, it will be a hidden benefit or such like that they class as income, added to your yearly amount.

Personal pensions should not be taken into account in certain circumstances. Its convoluted and spirals all over the place about what is and isnt classed under this but the regulation is here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/...on/40/made. HOWEVER, what they "may" mean is they have taken your personal pensions into consideration and as this is not classed as income under our rules it will have been discounted. But you MUST confirm this with them

As far as I am aware, neither parent can "enforce" Collect and pay. If you have been a good payer and can show this by way of evidence, (bank statements etc) then you have a case to take to the CMS and say I am willing to pay through Direct pay, I need to know where you send the money. This is a direct quote of the .gov site 

Either parent can choose Direct Pay without needing the other’s consent, unless there’s evidence that the paying parent is unlikely to pay.

So, first thing, get in touch with Cant Manage Sh**...sorry CMS, and state your case. You may have to go for a Mandatory Reconsideration and they will look into all of this.

Lastly. 
They check on your status on an annual review. This is normal.
Example here. My review is October. so last october they checked against the 2015-2016 tax figures, and put the charges against that. 
This October coming they check again, press the button, and as if by magic, the figure for 2016-2017 will show, and they make their charges against that. The CMS do everything by case review year as that's the first date it all started. They then use your historical tax data to figure the charges out. And YES. If you are earning less this year than last year, due to overtime or bonuses or change of job, then you will STILL Pay at the previous tax year rate. If you were on 50 grand the year before, they will set the charge against that figure. If halfway through you change jobs, and are on less money, this charge amount WILL NOT change unless its greater than 25% drop in money, in which case you apply for a mandatory reconsideration due to a variance and they adjust accordingly.
Yes its unfair. 
Yes it sucks
No you cant change it
its law
its policy 
and it will hurt and possibly put some fathers under due to financial obligations

So steps to take. 
1. get into your personal tax account and seek out where they have gotten the extra figures from. It is of no use asking the CMS as they punch a button and it comes up with a number, they cant tell you any more than that
2. read through the regulations regarding your pensions
3. get in contact with CMS first thing and ask they why and how you have been put on collect and pay and what there determination of you doing so has been from. If they are going by her account alone then that's a bit naughty they should ask for evidence.

Hope this helps pal, any questions you think I may be able to answer then drop me a PM or sling it on here
Advice & opinions on this forum are offered informally, without any assumption of liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.
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#10
(02-27-2017, 08:10 AM)Drew65 Wrote:
(02-27-2017, 07:43 AM)Upcreek Wrote: Morning

I need some urgent advice / help.

I received the letter on Saturday regarding payments, from the CMS.  I have a few queries :-

firstly they have taken my gross taxable income from the HMRC, this is different to what my month 12 wage slip says, they have actually added £750 on.  any idea why

secondly they state that they have taken my pension contribution into consideration.  do the HMRC have that information and can they give it to them?

Thirdly (the big one), the mother has opted for collect and pay, I have read the notes and it states that an additional 20% would be added to my amount for them to handle the money.  I have her bank details and I have never missed a payment in the 12 years.  can the CMS do this? 

finally they say that I will be looked at annually, does that mean they have looked at my 15-16 HMRC statement and wont look again until march 18 where they look at my 16-17 statement.

any help on this would be really appreciated, at present this is causing me and my family great stress and concern.

thank you

Firstly mate
Take a deep breath and calm down I know this is hitting hard and you will be in a panic state....like I was. Actually I was furious but there ya go.

I have a link to a thread I did regarding how they take the figures into account. Gross taxable income is in a short definition, whatever the HMRC deem to be income (benefits in kind, company car, BUPA healthcare, stock options, overtime etc) and this is put to your annual tax account and classed as income for taxation purposes.

I strongly suggest you login to your personal tax account Here https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account, this will give you the ultimate breakdown of all the financial stuff, HMRC have taken into account to equate the figure they do. The payslip information will tally with your P60, however the P60 ONLY shows income from employment, such as salary, wages and overtime. It does NOT show any benefits classed as income by the HMRC, and I have a feeling, it will be a hidden benefit or such like that they class as income, added to your yearly amount.

Personal pensions should not be taken into account in certain circumstances. Its convoluted and spirals all over the place about what is and isnt classed under this but the regulation is here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/...on/40/made. HOWEVER, what they "may" mean is they have taken your personal pensions into consideration and as this is not classed as income under our rules it will have been discounted. But you MUST confirm this with them

As far as I am aware, neither parent can "enforce" Collect and pay. If you have been a good payer and can show this by way of evidence, (bank statements etc) then you have a case to take to the CMS and say I am willing to pay through Direct pay, I need to know where you send the money. This is a direct quote of the .gov site 

Either parent can choose Direct Pay without needing the other’s consent, unless there’s evidence that the paying parent is unlikely to pay.

So, first thing, get in touch with Cant Manage Sh**...sorry CMS, and state your case. You may have to go for a Mandatory Reconsideration and they will look into all of this.

Lastly. 
They check on your status on an annual review. This is normal.
Example here. My review is October. so last october they checked against the 2015-2016 tax figures, and put the charges against that. 
This October coming they check again, press the button, and as if by magic, the figure for 2016-2017 will show, and they make their charges against that. The CMS do everything by case review year as that's the first date it all started. They then use your historical tax data to figure the charges out. And YES. If you are earning less this year than last year, due to overtime or bonuses or change of job, then you will STILL Pay at the previous tax year rate. If you were on 50 grand the year before, they will set the charge against that figure. If halfway through you change jobs, and are on less money, this charge amount WILL NOT change unless its greater than 25% drop in money, in which case you apply for a mandatory reconsideration due to a variance and they adjust accordingly.
Yes its unfair. 
Yes it sucks
No you cant change it
its law
its policy 
and it will hurt and possibly put some fathers under due to financial obligations

So steps to take. 
1. get into your personal tax account and seek out where they have gotten the extra figures from. It is of no use asking the CMS as they punch a button and it comes up with a number, they cant tell you any more than that
2. read through the regulations regarding your pensions
3. get in contact with CMS first thing and ask they why and how you have been put on collect and pay and what there determination of you doing so has been from. If they are going by her account alone then that's a bit naughty they should ask for evidence.

Hope this helps pal, any questions you think I may be able to answer then drop me a PM or sling it on here

You have the right to appeal the decison to put you on collect and pay. Your ex has to evidance none payment, and you will then get a chance to show you did pay, if you had.
Posts made by me are my opinion and any factual information should be checked out. If you do not have a Solicitor, often your local CAB can get you some initial advice.
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