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Does ex need my permission for a passport and travel?
#1
Brief history, was never married, lived together and split up with child who is 16 month old and in my name. 

So the ex wanted to know if i would go to the passport office to sign/agree for my daughter to have a passport. I had no problems with this as it was for a wedding and didn't want her to miss out. But later i thought about it a little more and i thought, once she's got a passport, then later in a few years a wrong choice in relationship (which is likely to happen) there is a potential for all sorts of trouble to happen. So i asked if she would agree on a few things, which then we would make legal binding i.e ;

For a maximum time away of two weeks and any time spent away during contact with myself to be made up within one month,
I will receive flight times, booking references and places where she will be staying a month before departure,
Must have travel insurance that covers for medical treatment and reparation,
Only to travel too countries that the Foreign Travel Advice deems safe and that the terrorism threat is general. Any changes in destinations threat level to high must cancelled.
Not to go to any beaches that are full with lots of people, especially European tourists. In regards to latest threats made to Spain and the recent Tunisia shootings.
Not to be left attended by hotel or any other children's crèche services and must be kept in your sight at all times. For yourself needing the toilet etc. must only be left with close family or close friends of the family. In regards to child abduction.

Now i didn't think these were too restrictive etc, but anyway she gave a abrupt 'well i ain't going then, bla bla bla.' Currently the ex is being quite friendly considering this is her best mates wedding, now i'm thinking either she didn't want to travel with two children on a plane in the first place and is using me as an excuse, or secondly she doesn't need my permission/consent to travel or to get a passport, or thirdly my signature may be forged.

A little research from this thread http://www.separateddads.co.uk/can-ex-pa...ssion.html mentions;


Who can apply for a passport?
  • Either parent can apply for a passport for their child, unless an objection has been lodged at a United Kingdom Identity and Passport Service office. So she doesn't need my permission??
  • A child under the age of 16 must have permission from a person with PR for them.  'A' as in one or the other or both??
If you are separated but still married, either parent can give permission for a child to have a passport.
If you are divorced, but were married at the time of or after the child's birth, either parent can give permission for a child to have a passport, unless there is a court order about PR or preventing the child from having a passport. If this is the case, you should send a copy of the relevant court order with your application.

If you are not and were never married to the mother of your child, only she can give permission for the child to have a passport, unless: Which is me

  1. You have PR, either through a Parental Responsibility Agreement or by order of the court

  2. You are named as the father on the birth certificate and your child was born after 01 December 2003



Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on my example? I still think if i am correct according to this https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad that she still needs my permission to go abroad thou??  

Regards and sorry for the long read  Confused
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#2
I think as far as the  rules state, even if you have PR, You would need a court order in place giving details of circumstances .
The other guys on here will be able to tell you exactly which orders should be in place.

The way I read the rules, if you don't have the arrangement order in place, then how does the court know how to deal with your particular situation. In other words sounds like you need to get the child arrangement order in place even though you have PR.

I have to admit the rules on that page a pretty ambiguous.  It says you must get permission of everyone with PR to take them abroad, UNLESS there is a CAO in place (in which case permission is not needed for periods of up to 28 days)

By the sound of it you seem to get on pretty well with the mother, in my view you seem to be doing the right thing, but perhaps she views your "list" as too restrictive?
(I see why you are saying it by the way) But on the face of it, she wants one thing, to go abroad with the little one. You (you nasty dad type person you Smile ) want to stop all that and give me , her mother, some list telling me what to do, how bloody dare you!
From her side you are being restrictive, from your side , protective.

I wonder if you sat down with her and explained your reasoning, she might swing round to your line of thinking. The reason I ask is, if you wade in with your big boy pants on and say, I am putting a court order down so there!, she will think you have gone nuts and the relationship you have with her will fall down even more. And even if you do, put it in place, then she can take little one away for 28 days anyhow. 

I encourage caution, and talking it through amicably if you can. 

Mine never went that way by the way, she turned into a harpy from hell if I even breathed in the same town as her!
Advice & opinions on this forum are offered informally, without any assumption of liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.
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#3
(03-07-2017, 04:36 AM)Drew65 Wrote: I think as far as the  rules state, even if you have PR, You would need a court order in place giving details of circumstances .
The other guys on here will be able to tell you exactly which orders should be in place.

The way I read the rules, if you don't have the arrangement order in place, then how does the court know how to deal with your particular situation. In other words sounds like you need to get the child arrangement order in place even though you have PR.

I have to admit the rules on that page a pretty ambiguous.  It says you must get permission of everyone with PR to take them abroad, UNLESS there is a CAO in place (in which case permission is not needed for periods of up to 28 days)

By the sound of it you seem to get on pretty well with the mother, in my view you seem to be doing the right thing, but perhaps she views your "list" as too restrictive?
(I see why you are saying it by the way) But on the face of it, she wants one thing, to go abroad with the little one. You (you nasty dad type person you Smile ) want to stop all that and give me , her mother, some list telling me what to do, how bloody dare you!
From her side you are being restrictive, from your side , protective.

I wonder if you sat down with her and explained your reasoning, she might swing round to your line of thinking. The reason I ask is, if you wade in with your big boy pants on and say, I am putting a court order down so there!, she will think you have gone nuts and the relationship you have with her will fall down even more. And even if you do, put it in place, then she can take little one away for 28 days anyhow. 

I encourage caution, and talking it through amicably if you can. 

Mine never went that way by the way, she turned into a harpy from hell if I even breathed in the same town as her!

The law regarding obtaining of Passports is not the same as laws to take a child out of the UK.

Either parent with PR can obtain a passport, as in most cases, they can get a passport for any country each parent can (but the other parent might not qualify after either in relationship, or it might change after separation).

Without International Aspects to a case, you need consent from everyone with PR to take a child out of the UK.

If a Child Arrangement Order (or Consent Order covering Child Arrangements) makes either parent the Resident Parent by saying xxxx LIVES WITH xxxxx then unless you apply not to grant it, by default they gain the right to take the child out of the UK for up to 28 days at a time for a holiday, but it does not give them any right to breach any contact court order etc, so if its in the non resident parents time it must be by agreement.

This is why I advise to always ask as a non Resident Parent for this to be awarded, so you do not have to pay a fee and come back to court, and to ask for a 2 week block in the summer, so your not stuck on a set departure date, so you can get a better deal. It is up to the Resident Parent to show good reason why this should not be allowed.
Posts made by me are my opinion and any factual information should be checked out. If you do not have a Solicitor, often your local CAB can get you some initial advice.
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#4
Drew65
Yes, i think some of the terms might be a little too ambiguous, but then also i think others are just common sense. In regards to the travel insurance and foreign travel advise parts i think these are common sense. To be fair i possible do not need to know the resort etc of where she is staying, but at least the country and the flights would be courteous, as i know she wouldn't text me to say they had all landed safely, as a matter of a hierarchy. The leaving my daughter in a creche, well you just don't know the type of training or standards of countries and companies. I may be sounding bonkers with a terror attack on Spain, but i really do believe a maximum casualty result attacking British people would be very achievable. I currently work in the care sector, so you have to cover everything and that people are quite unpredictable, so maybe this is rubbing off a little.          

I would say compared to some of the stories you hear that yes we get on ok. To start of with i was doing everything she was asking until enough was enough and i'm not going to be walked on, and that i have my rights too. I used to think she was like a cuckoo clock that was out of sync, there was a little power struggle but now i just tend to laugh at it. Don't get me wrong it sometimes still grates me but you have to take life as it comes, as long as my little girl is happy and safe then i'm happy.   

I need to sit down at some point and go through the mediation process as i only see her for 6 hours a week, 5 if you exclude travelling. She did write in her communication book that it would be over night Sat/Sun, then the following Monday on a two week basis, but then she has since retracted this saying it was a typo. Now is saying i can have her over night but then i wont get to see her until another fortnight which is too long, to much to teach her and she grows so fast. But this is another story and when we get to sit down i want everything in place. 
Thank you for your quick reply, hope all gets better with your situation.

MarkR

So in my case as there is no Child Arrangement Order then she would have to ask for my permission to take my daughter out of the country? 

To be honest a Child Arrangement Order etc sounds like it deals with certain issues but then can open up a can of worms for other aspects unless stated and made clear?? 

Many thanks for your reply.
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#5
Chef,

Your situation is similar to mine so maybe if i share a few things i learnt.

In principle as you both have PR, either of you can ask the other parent to agree to an extended period of time away from the other parent which may or may not include a trip abroad.

As it means you may not see your kid for a few days or nights that you normally would, you have a choice.

1. You say yes to her holiday and she says yes to yours
2. You says 'No', then the other person says "No' then it goes to court and eventually as you're both decent adults and judge says "the right of the kid to a holiday with either of you is beneficial and stop being revengeful against each other .... put the kid first."

Work towards option 1... trust me!

To answer some of your specifics:
Your ex's future relationship success or failure has no bearing on your daughter going to Benidorm for a week with her mum
Its ok to ask for the time back you would have lost out with your daughter.... maybe not within a month... but see option 1 above... Win:Win
Flight time details, location, insurance... all reasonable to ask for
As the mother, with PR, she can equally choose where she goes on holiday... Lets assume she is not going to take your daughter to Afghanistan for a beach holiday - you haven't really got a right to start to say where she can and can't go... lets assume your ex will apply equal common sense as you would
How crowded the beaches are she attends - nothing to do with you bud
Leaving the kid in holiday creche or play group - nothing to do with you bud
Telling her how to go to the toilet ... seriously... you put that writing??? But really nothing to do with you

The reason its nothing to do with you is you have agreed she can go on holiday (or to look after the kid over the weekend in UK - same principle) therefore you delegate the responsibility for the child's well-being to your ex.... you can't then stipulate conditions or micro manage from the armchair

So you ARE being restrictive and NOT being reasonable.

However, before i get an ear full ;-).... remember option 1? You get it ALL back when YOU want to take the little one away (or have her for the weekend)
The ex can't tell you where to go, who to go with, how to take a p*ss, etc etc etc - you're equal parents and equally capable of looking after your daughter

So while you are right you need to 'agree' between you and the ex (as a holiday takes time away from one parent).... remember option 2... you get there quickly when you start putting restrictions and conditions.
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#6
(03-08-2017, 01:34 PM)LTCDAD Wrote: Chef,

Your situation is similar to mine so maybe if i share a few things i learnt.

In principle as you both have PR, either of you can ask the other parent to agree to an extended period of time away from the other parent which may or may not include a trip abroad.

As it means you may not see your kid for a few days or nights that you normally would, you have a choice.

1. You say yes to her holiday and she says yes to yours
2. You says 'No', then the other person says "No' then it goes to court and eventually as you're both decent adults and judge says "the right of the kid to a holiday with either of you is beneficial and stop being revengeful against each other .... put the kid first."

Work towards option 1... trust me!

To answer some of your specifics:
Your ex's future relationship success or failure has no bearing on your daughter going to Benidorm for a week with her mum
Its ok to ask for the time back you would have lost out with your daughter.... maybe not within a month... but see option 1 above... Win:Win
Flight time details, location, insurance... all reasonable to ask for
As the mother, with PR, she can equally choose where she goes on holiday... Lets assume she is not going to take your daughter to Afghanistan for a beach holiday - you haven't really got a right to start to say where she can and can't go... lets assume your ex will apply equal common sense as you would
How crowded the beaches are she attends - nothing to do with you bud
Leaving the kid in holiday creche or play group - nothing to do with you bud
Telling her how to go to the toilet ... seriously... you put that writing??? But really nothing to do with you

The reason its nothing to do with you is you have agreed she can go on holiday (or to look after the kid over the weekend in UK - same principle) therefore you delegate the responsibility for the child's well-being to your ex.... you can't then stipulate conditions or micro manage from the armchair

So you ARE being restrictive and NOT being reasonable.

However, before i get an ear full ;-).... remember option 1? You get it ALL back when YOU want to take the little one away (or have her for the weekend)
The ex can't tell you where to go, who to go with, how to take a p*ss, etc etc etc - you're equal parents and equally capable of looking after your daughter

So while you are right you need to 'agree' between you and the ex (as a holiday takes time away from one parent)....  remember option 2... you get there quickly when you start putting restrictions and conditions.

I kind of think you have read it a little wrong, i do want her to go on holiday believe me. But i think as she is so young and vulnerable and hasn't really got the capacity to make her own choices that me and you would make and i think she deserves to be safe. 

Ok so i agree that her future relationships really haven't got anything to do with me, also just to add i don't really care for them, until it gets to the point it effects my daughter. 

I would like to put the question back into your position and say your ex got a new boyfriend who you knew was a bit of a looser, enjoyed going to Ibiza and drinking loads of water etc, then your ex said to you she is taking your child to Ibiza. So your child might be left in a creche who's staff is mainly there just to work and play hard, who might be coming in to work in the creche after a hard night clubbing, would you really want your daughter being looked after some pill popping raver? Look i know this stuff happens all the time, i had a mate who used to do outdoor activities in France and Canada years and years ago. He used to constantly turn up to work hung over and it wasn't until one of the parents complained did the company actually do something about it, as they were all doing it. Sometimes it only takes going to the toilet for all sorts of things to happen, especially if the person you left them with was about as much use as leaving them on their own.   
or 
Your ex said she was taking your child to Turkey next year? It's not just the shootings that happened there, but also things like you hear about couples taking a nice night time walk along the beach only to be attack by a group of men. I know this stuff happens all the time in 'any' country but the old saying goes that when your on holiday your guards are down, the last thing people think about is child abduction or other hazards. Yet this is the reason why so many tourists are caught out each year by criminals. 

Maybe i am being a little to over protective, and to be honest since becoming a dad it's made me look at life in a whole new way. It was only the other day i was watching the news with a little girl who managed to escape the town of Mosul, so innocent yet all around her was far from innocent, that really touched my heart. All i could think about was what if that was my little girl. 

But i do think you are right, so i'm not going to give a ear full, i'm not that kind of person anyway. I believe forums are there as a debate, ones that you have to listen too and take points of views from all sides, and i appreciate your time in replying.     

Regards
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#7
Hi Chef
I have an ex that tries to tell me when, where and who I go on holiday with when i take the kids... i see it from that side so I'm sensitive to it... and when lads like me put on the forum that the ex is like that we all kick off saying "how dare she" but... it has to be fair both ways

Let me try and explain?
There are 2 sides - 1. your emotions, fears and concerns and then 2. the law and facts
Please don't mix the two

How old is your ex? If she over 18 shes an adult in law and can make choices freely. What you think about her capacity to make choices is your opinion and unless you have facts like she is under some care program for vulnerable people then you don't have a say .

Her future relationships ... will effect your daughter ... but could be positive and until its proven negative... again its just your conjecture

If my ex said she is taking my kids to Ibiza... i would say "Enjoy yourself'
If you have concerns about a new partner taking drugs in front of your kid then you have legal option - act now!
Your partner has every right to put the child in a creche if the hotel offers the service to such young kids - its her choice
The quality of the staff - again its conjecture.... your emotions and fear... not fact so nothing you can do
If you think anyone working in the creche has taken drugs and you can prove it you have a complaints and legal option

Your mate turning up to work drunk in Canada has no bearing on your ex's holiday plans .... none

If my ex chooses to take my kids to Turkey (wouldn't be my choice of holiday) i have to once again say - enjoy yourself.... i would advise her against but she wouldn't listen to me ... it whey we are not together anymore ;-)
but again you have no right to stop her... this is your insecurities, not hers, We would never go on holiday again if we thought our kids would be abducted... however, you can't stop your ex because of your fears

You're not being over protective ... its called being a 'Dad' and you are right to think the way you do ... we all do

BUT and its a big BUT
there are things you can control and things your can't ... the situation where you split from a partner and kids are involved brings out a load of emotions and fears... and you will have a lot to get used to over the next few years... most of the stuff you've expressed as fears are "not a hill to die on" so pick your battles carefully or like others on the forum the ex will resent you and try to stop your access... at least that is one thing you do have a legal option on!

Ps you could apply to court if you think your ex is putting your child in danger ... but court is not going stop her taking the child to a holiday to Ibiza because someone once popped a pill in 1992 and you don't like her new partner
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#8
(03-08-2017, 07:39 PM)LTCDAD Wrote: Hi Chef
I have an ex that tries to tell me when, where and who I go on holiday with when i take the kids... i see it from that side so I'm sensitive to it... and when lads like me put on the forum that the ex is like that we all kick off saying "how dare she" but... it has to be fair both ways

Let me try and explain?
There are 2 sides - 1. your emotions, fears and concerns and then 2. the law and facts
Please don't mix the two

How old is your ex? If she over 18 shes an adult in law and can make choices freely. What you think about her capacity to make choices is your opinion and unless you have facts like she is under some care program for vulnerable people then you don't have a say .

Her future relationships ... will effect your daughter ... but could be positive and until its proven negative... again its just your conjecture

If my ex said she is taking my kids to Ibiza... i would say "Enjoy yourself'
If you have concerns about a new partner taking drugs in front of your kid then you have legal option - act now!
Your partner has every right to put the child in a creche if the hotel offers the service to such young kids - its her choice
The quality of the staff - again its conjecture.... your emotions and fear... not fact so nothing you can do
If you think anyone working in the creche has taken drugs and you can prove it you have a complaints and legal option

Your mate turning up to work drunk in Canada has no bearing on your ex's holiday plans .... none

If my ex chooses to take my kids to Turkey (wouldn't be my choice of holiday) i have to once again say - enjoy yourself.... i would advise her against but she wouldn't listen to me ... it whey we are not together anymore ;-)
but again you have no right to stop her... this is your insecurities, not hers, We would never go on holiday again if we thought our kids would be abducted... however, you can't stop your ex because of your fears

You're not being over protective ... its called being a 'Dad' and you are right to think the way you do ... we all do

BUT and its a big BUT
there are things you can control and things your can't ... the situation where you split from a partner and kids are involved brings out a load of emotions and fears... and you will have a lot to get used to over the next few years... most of the stuff you've expressed as fears are "not a hill to die on" so pick your battles carefully or like others on the forum the ex will resent you and try to stop your access... at least that is one thing you do have a legal option on!

Ps you could apply to court if you think your ex is putting your child in danger ... but court is not going stop her taking the child to a holiday to Ibiza because someone once popped a pill in 1992 and you don't like her new partner

FFFFFFFFFFS, you are right in so many ways, cheers and it does make it easier to hear that. I like your style, but you would be no good as a knife mate ^^ Yeah i guess i haven't been the only one in life to be feeling like this, you know you get most things in life sorted, a good grasp on how to handle any situation life throws at you, then a little girl comes along and crumples you!! For years i have been following a Buddhist philosophy of what happens happens, live in the moment, back to monk school i think!! 
Just for the record she hasn't got a boy friend, as far as i know, and like i said before i don't care too much. Just being too over protective i guess!!

Thanks for some solid words of wisdom thou, time to man the feck up ^^
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#9
Cheers mate, nice feedback

I say it as i see it and hope it makes sense.... whether or not i do all those things that are easy to write down and difficult to do in practice... well ;-)

Chill with her a little, tell her you trust her to make the right decisions for the kid and hope she feels the same about you

If you are not going to bring that kid up as a couple then you need to aim to do it as 2 supportive co-parents - its the kid that is the focus not your relationship with the ex

If I ever hear my ex say she is a "single mum" she will get an earful... she is a supported separated co-parent and I would say the same... well, I'd like to say the same BUT she makes my life hell however, i refuse to go to her level and hope one day she will see she only impacts the kids by trying to make my life difficult

As for the buddhist theory - great stuff BUT ... know your rights and make sure you meet in the middle as much as possible but if the ex starts to reduce contact for example... don't be afraid to act
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