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Does this warrant a breach
#1
Does the below warrant any action? Stop contact?
I dont want to been seen breaching the order that wasnt agreed too.

Really lost in this.
Safeguard my child or put him at risk of harm given he has witnessed sig DV ,abuse etc in past .


Since the last hearing dated 16th October 2017 there have been

1.- three incidents where my son has not been not returned and whereabouts unknown . My son was returned the following day. Police was notified on both occasions. ( she has used the wording on the order to take advantage. Given the order made is awaiting a appeal date as it is,not wat was agreed)

2.A further 9 incidents to where my wife had absconded with my son from the contact venue and was not returned back in to my care at end of her contact .resulting in 3rd party having to travel 50minutes to collect my son and returning him back at 7pm. Contact on these days was during school week.


3.There have been recent threats made not to return my son back in to my care stating she can apply for axxxx foreign passport for my son.
HM passport agency and reunited international have been notified and have placed a marker on my sons current UK passport to prevent a duplicate British passport being issued.
This does not prevent a non hague passport from being applied for.

4. Incidents of aggressive and threatening language in the presence of my son.


As a result of the above it has had an impact on my sons emotional and physical wellbeing.he has returned back extremely distressed tired and confused.tearful etc

I asked the court to consider an application for a prohibited steps order in the following
While the appeal hearing date is set.

This is so that preventative measures are in place to ensure repeat incidents do not occur which is having a detrimental impact on my sons emotional wellbeing.
The admin clerk has told me that the judge has seen my letter and that I will need to wait for the appeal hearing date?
Ive been told it could be in 3-6months?

So in the mean time do I keep putting up with the above which is and will continue to have an impact on my sons stable and secure environment,,emotional and physical wellbeing.etc.

Please bear in mind
1.court order reads consent order, which the direction was not what I agreed or discussed with cafcass.
I had not seen the order,or draft in court watso ever. Only a verbal discussion outside the court room about my position. Only has it posted out. Contact arrangements was not even read out in court.

My position and wat was discussed with the cafcass officer .
A. Father resident parent.
B.the mother to have contact.
C.no over night contact until the mother completes a parenting programme.
D.attends dv programme
E.12month family assisted order
F. Supevised /supported contact until c,d completed.
G.no over sea travel etc
H. Contact every other weekend ,and 2 tea time contact.only when c,d completed
I. Contact to remain mon, wed ,,sat. 3hrs until c,d completed.
J. Graduale over night faise in , 1 night to start etc once c,d completed

The order I got does not reflect any of that at all.
Hense the permission to appeal being granted.
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#2
(12-19-2017, 05:52 AM)asd1270 Wrote: Does the below warrant any action? Stop contact?
I dont want to been seen breaching the order that wasnt agreed too.

Really lost in this.
Safeguard my child or put him at risk of harm given he has witnessed sig DV ,abuse etc in past .


Since the last hearing dated 16th October 2017 there have been

1.- three incidents where my son has not been  not returned and whereabouts unknown . My son was returned the following day. Police was notified on both occasions. ( she has used the wording on the order to take advantage. Given the order made is awaiting a appeal date as it is,not wat was agreed)  

2.A further 9 incidents to where my  wife had absconded with my son from the contact venue and was not returned  back in to my care at end of her contact .resulting in 3rd party having to  travel  50minutes to collect my son and returning him back at 7pm. Contact on these days was during school week.


3.There have been recent threats made not to return my son back in to my care stating she can apply for axxxx foreign  passport for my son.
HM passport agency  and reunited international have been notified and have placed a marker on my sons current UK passport to prevent a duplicate British passport being issued.
This does not prevent a non hague  passport from being applied for.

4. Incidents of aggressive and threatening language in the presence of my son.


As a result  of the above it has had an impact on my sons emotional and physical wellbeing.he has returned back extremely distressed  tired and confused.tearful etc

I asked  the court to consider  an application for a prohibited steps order in the following
While the appeal hearing date is set.

This is so that preventative measures are in place to ensure repeat incidents do not occur which is having a detrimental impact on my sons emotional wellbeing.
The admin clerk has told me that the judge has seen my letter and that I will need to wait for the appeal hearing date?
Ive been told it could be in 3-6months?

So in the mean time do I keep putting up with the above which is and will continue to have an impact on my sons stable and secure environment,,emotional and physical wellbeing.etc.

Please bear in mind
1.court order reads consent order, which the direction  was not what I agreed or discussed with cafcass.
I had not seen the order,or draft in court watso ever. Only a verbal discussion outside the court room about my position. Only has it posted out. Contact arrangements was not even read out in court.

My position and wat was discussed with the cafcass officer .
A. Father resident parent.
B.the mother to have contact.
C.no over night contact until the mother completes a parenting programme.
D.attends dv programme
E.12month family assisted order
F. Supevised /supported contact until c,d completed.
G.no over sea travel etc
H. Contact every other weekend ,and 2 tea time contact.only when c,d completed
I. Contact to remain mon, wed ,,sat. 3hrs until c,d completed.
J. Graduale over night faise in , 1 night to start etc once c,d completed  

The order I got does not reflect any of that at all.
Hense the permission to appeal being granted.

Contact the Court, and ask for the case to now be an Urgent Hearing, due to late return, and threats of removing the child from the UK.
You might also want to apply for a PSO to stop the child being taken out of the UK
Posts made by me are my opinion and any factual information should be checked out. If you do not have a Solicitor, often your local CAB can get you some initial advice.
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#3
Hi mark.

I went down that route.
Contacted the court last week for initiative a emergency hearing with all the concerns listed
I was told by the court that the judge has read my concerns and that I will have to wait till the appeal hearing?
Pso and Specific order was put fwd as well.

Shall I this time put it through using the relevant documents and pay the fee. Previously I sent letter to be put in front of the judge as urgent.
The solicitor said I wont be successful as I dont have much grounds for it????
Its a joke.
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#4
I would say 1 to 3 are a breach - but it really depends on what the order says. 4 could be difficult to prove. If the order you are appealing is badly worded it may not be a breach. I am sure you are but make brief formal notes of all these things, dated, as evidence for appeal hearing. Obviously that doesn't prevent stress for son.

Can you stop contact? Tricky if order does not now say you are the resident parent - but if you have tried to apply for an urgent thing and Judge has said to wait - then ex would no doubt get the same answer. If you wanted to stop contact to prevent this for son it might be an idea to get an official body to recommend you do that. Not necessarily social services but some kind of family worker. In our area there is a county council children's services with some silly name like First Point - which is a "level below" social services. But they do have family workers and you can contact them with concerns about child - give them details of what is happening. I think they would only recommend stopping contact for "safeguarding" eg if you told them there was some abuse. So maybe that route wouldn't help.

Looking at points 1 to 3 again - if you have the threats in writing then contact social services (or childrens services) saying concerns about emotional abuse of child and threats of abduction - waiting for a court hearing and wish to stop contact for safeguarding reasons. If they can't recommend/agree to that or give you some advice in writing to that effect then maybe just try some damage limitation.

Contact venue - contact them and tell them to make sure child is not removed or if they allow it,it must be supervised to ensure child is returned at the end of contact. Do it in writing.

No grounds for a prohibited steps order? Surely a threat in writing to remove child from the country and not return them is enough evidence for prohibited steps to stop her removing child from the country?

Sorry you are having all this. I have something similar while waiting for hearing, although not as bad. Alienation via phone while son is with me distressing him - I have to allow the phone contact until next hearing - even though she is breaching the order and not allowing phone contact.

Where are you at? You applied for emergency hearing and Judge said wait till appeal hearing. Did you then apply for prohibited steps? Or held off after Judge said wait and Solicitor said no grounds.

I was once told by a Solicitor I couldn't apply for an injunction to prevent me being evicted in 3 days time. A friend of a friend was a top lawyer who said rubbish - yes you can. I did and got the injunction at 24 hours notice. Applied myself - had no idea what to put but just applied - Judge was great - gave me the injunction.

Different area though. If the court are being difficult and looking at it as if you are trying to jump the gun before next hearing (which you're not) then maybe just try to break down the issues and get as much sorted as possible.

I would start with the contact centre issue - make sure they do their job properly and safeguard child's contact. If you can, get something in writing from them about what has happened. eg write describing the incidents and ask for confirmation that xyz will be in place and your concerns for stress to child. So your letter is evidence and their response may be brief but won't deny what you've written so it's corroboration. Keep the tone of the letter unemotional, brief, calm, factual - however stressed you feel.

Other than that - Police know what is going on. Could you go back to Police with concerns - they have powers to remove a child from one parent and leave them with the other but only for a limited time until and urgent application is made to court - but with the Police backing/having done that you have better change of an urgent application.

I would break it down into:

1) Write a statement of concerns for Police and take it to them and express your concerns of threats of abduction attaching any emails as evidence (one would do). Take it to them and tell them of your concerns (the statement is in case you forget something or the words come out wrong) - hand it to them. Ask them to be alert to your concerns re son.

2) Write to contact centre asking for a response/acknowledgement. State you will be there at x time to collect son and politely request they ensure son is there, also expressing concerns for stress and uncertainty to son.

3) Depending on how it goes with Police - or maybe they can co-ordinate with social services - get social services involved - maybe best done through the Police. So ask Police to co-ordinate with social services.

I'm no expert - just my suggestions - you need all the help you can get. Police may be more effective than a prohibited steps order.
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#5
Charlie 7000

Thank u for your reply

Police have told me that their sergeant my mark it as malicious???if I continue to report concerns around abduction..

This is the problem with the whole system .cant get anywhere to secure my sons safety.
The reunite international agency have told me continue to report it police and dont get fobbed off.

Contact is at a local library or play barn and not at a contact centre.
Its not supervised.
The problem with the court order should have had everything in place like patenting programme , supported contact , dv programme, no overnights and defo not shared etc but it doesnt.

Yes I applied myself to the court plus a letter to the judge who viewed my concerns and a request for a prohibited steps order in the interim to safeguard from removal out of uk.
Was told via the court staff that I will need to wait till the appeal hearing???
This was confirmed in the post as well.
Its really bad how the courts are not at all considering the child welfare at all.

I will approach social services and see what advice they give me to prevent harm while waiting on the court date.
Good news is that the appeal hearing date is in January.
Relieved somewhat, to get it to the appeal process,thanks to the barrister I had,but was not a cheap thing, ££££s all because they screwed me over with not following court protocol. Will Expose the childs guardian who more than likely wrote out the consent order and managed to avoid a contested hearing .
I just want ppl to tell the the bloody truth n with facts as it is and not undermine fathers residency. Address domestic violence as it states in practice direction j12, ETC
And apply everything else that's handed down to victims of DV. If only I was wearing a skirt .

Ill keep you all updated as this is a peculiar case.
A father who has been primary and resident carer for his kid since he was born and suffered Dv .Yet still get screwed over in the court process by incompetent ppl.
Happy xmas all.
Reply
#6
Yup. I think there is still an attitude that men must be baddies and that children need women more - which is rubbish. They need both parents.

Good news about the hearing in January - maybe contacting the court/Judge speeded it up.
Reply
#7
I really appreciate all the support given on here. Thank you dads.

I need to consider stopping contact now but need some views. Am I putting my son at risk given previous unaddressed concerns raised in court around safeguarding ,ie dv, neglect and abuse.
My position statements were clear to prevent continuous harm.

-No overnight until mother has successfully completed a parenting programmes.

- attended a Dv programme
-secured her own accommodation, she is currently in a refuge or shared accommodation.
-supported contact
- no oversea travel.
-family assisted oder 12 months.
. Step contact then to increase contact to finally be every other weekend fri-sun 3pm
-2tea time contacts tue,thur other week,,3- 6pm


What is more president...

1.sticking to the incorrect court order which puts my son at harm while I await for the appeal hearing in 3weeks time.


2. Stop the overnight on the fri and supervising the contact ,reasons given below

A .No fwding address of where my son is during overnight and non return after tea time contacts.
B. Previous Threats of abduction and 2x attempts.
C. Previous concerns and ongoing Impact of abuse and neglect
D .continuation of cohesive behaviour
E. A change in my sons behaviour since the court order allowing overnight, he is wetting the bed again and having sleep disturbances, saying his mummy shouts at him, appearing with drawn , etc


As the hearing is in 3 weeks I should really stop the overnights as if I raise all these concerns I will be asked in court why did u not stop contact.

Dammed if you do and dammed if you dont.

I guess protecting a child is paramount.

Dilemma.
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#8
It is difficult. If you stop contact you would probably need good evidence as to why you did, at the appeal hearing or it might look bad. Could you do a halfway thing? Like stop most contact but allow it under certain circumstances?
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#9
I was thinking keeping the contacts but supported at the play centre, so its supported. As it was what I recommended.in my final hearing while shit in between got addressed.
Why the hell am I sticking to the order that was not agreed to .????

She will probably refuse and not turn up and make threats that I'm in comptent of court .

Shift contact to
Ie 3hours x 2times A week.
Tues , Thursday, same with Sat.


Rather than the not agreed consent order of M,W,F 12-5 and fri overnight til sat 12pm , during holidays where she had not been returning him).

In ref to getting a bull busting by the judge at the appeal hearing

I worked in child protection and safe guarding working with children and vulnerable persons for 20years. fuck it I know when a child is at harm.

Regardless is its a ex or a stranger. I'm sticking to what's in the best interest of my son.

The explanation will be simple I guess.
Safeguarding my son and worried that a young child remains at risk of neglect or harm, abuse given the previous concerns that still remain which the courts had been made aware of throughout the hearings..Safeguarding measures before any progression to overnight contact was not reflected in the consent order which I Has proposed.
Threats and coercive behaviour still remains.

The biggest fear is abductions and the exposure of witnessing domestic violence.
The courts did not take into account of the severity of the DV or the abuse that the child was subject too.

Assualting the other patent while the child was being carried in my arms is like ok? And then falling to the
Ground from the impact of the kicks.

What annoys me is that professionals think its not a big deal when its a guy being assaulted.

The mother does not have a remorseful bone in her body of the impact any of her toxic behaviours have on our son.

Ill report my concerns to social on 27th.and see what advise they can give to minimise the impact my son my experience from past DV and current emotional abuse.

Ok HAPPY XMAS, The non f. Resident parent has my son from 11-6pm? Who the hell suggested and agreed that. No public transport today either. Looks like a taxi job 10miles to her refuge Or close to it.
Need to get my mate to take him too on xmas day .
Im in support of contact only when its safe to do so.

The abuse has been all audio recorded since 2013.if they hear it they will be shocked and CAFCASS will hide up their buttholes , I hate incompetent professionals who steer clear from facts. All I saw from them was feeling manipulated and undermined against wat I believe in.
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#10
Sorry this is such a stressful time. Yes maybe contact social services on 27th.
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