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Holiday - Should I compromise?
#1
Hi,

I am after some advice for a family holiday I would like this year. My son is 4 years old, just turned, and is due to start Primary school in September. I have requested 2 weeks abroad, from my very controlling ex, who has obviously refused this time away.

For background

We have been through 6 months mediation and 2 court visits. At mediation over night stays were refused until "maybe when he starts primary school" so I took the matter to court self representing. It was agreed in court that I should be having overnight stays, but it wasn't included in the order, so when they were due to start my ex said that as she wasn't ordered to allow them she wouldn't. We went back to court and this time I got 1 night in the week and every other weekend Friday-Sunday included in the order. This has been ongoing now since the start of September.

My ex will only give me what she has been ordered to in almost all cases.

My dad has terminal cancer so, late last year, all my family decided to book a 2 week holiday away for this Summer. My dad has been given 18 months, so we figured it would be a last chance to have a big holiday, to make some good lasting memories, all before he gets too ill. In total there are 15 members of my family going on this trip.

When I've approached my ex about a 2 week holiday abroad this summer, she has stated that she thinks 2 weeks is too long for our son to be away from her so she'll only allow 1 week in this country. I have kept things professional, trying to keep my emotions out of it, and after exchanging a couple of e mails, where she personally attacked me for no reason and said I should stop using my dads cancer as an excuse, she finally came back and said I could have 1 week abroad, but that is it, and only if she approves of the holiday destination.

I have informed her of the destination, gran canaria, and am awaiting her reply to that. In addition, I've asked her to confirm if I take 1 week this summer I can have 1 week during October half term, and then build this to 2 weeks next Summer.

I have priced up a return flight 1 week into the holiday, for me and my son to fly home, and then a flight back, just for me, to re-join my family for the second week. It sucks that I will have to bring my son home, away from his cousins who he loves playing with, after a week but I am trying to compromise with her.

My family think I shouldn't have to compromise, and I should take this to court as it's a reasonable request. I am interested to know what others here think? If she comes back and doesn't agree with the dates I want to go, or the destination, I guess I will be forced to take this to court anyway.

Is 2 weeks too much time away for a 4.5 year old from his mother?
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#2
(01-17-2018, 03:00 PM)Radar Wrote: Hi,

I am after some advice for a family holiday I would like this year. My son is 4 years old, just turned, and is due to start Primary school in September. I have requested 2 weeks abroad, from my very controlling ex, who has obviously refused this time away.

For background

We have been through 6 months mediation and 2 court visits. At mediation over night stays were refused until "maybe when he starts primary school" so I took the matter to court self representing. It was agreed in court that I should be having overnight stays, but it wasn't included in the order, so when they were due to start my ex said that as she wasn't ordered to allow them she wouldn't. We went back to court and this time I got 1 night in the week and every other weekend Friday-Sunday included in the order. This has been ongoing now since the start of September.

My ex will only give me what she has been ordered to in almost all cases.

My dad has terminal cancer so, late last year, all my family decided to book a 2 week holiday away for this Summer. My dad has been given 18 months, so we figured it would be a last chance to have a big holiday, to make some good lasting memories, all before he gets too ill. In total there are 15 members of my family going on this trip.

When I've approached my ex about a 2 week holiday abroad this summer, she has stated that she thinks 2 weeks is too long for our son to be away from her so she'll only allow 1 week in this country. I have kept things professional, trying to keep my emotions out of it, and after exchanging a couple of e mails, where she personally attacked me for no reason and said I should stop using my dads cancer as an excuse, she finally came back and said I could have 1 week abroad, but that is it, and only if she approves of the holiday destination.

I have informed her of the destination, gran canaria, and am awaiting her reply to that. In addition, I've asked her to confirm if I take 1 week this summer I can have 1 week during October half term, and then build this to 2 weeks next Summer.

I have priced up a return flight 1 week into the holiday, for me and my son to fly home, and then a flight back, just for me, to re-join my family for the second week. It sucks that I will have to bring my son home, away from his cousins who he loves playing with, after a week but I am trying to compromise with her.

My family think I shouldn't have to compromise, and I should take this to court as it's a reasonable request. I am interested to know what others here think? If she comes back and doesn't agree with the dates I want to go, or the destination, I guess I will be forced to take this to court anyway.

Is 2 weeks too much time away for a 4.5 year old from his mother?

In my view, its back to Court, to Vary the existing order, due to your ex not giving you what you should.

As far as the law is concerned, from 2,you should get half of the Quality Time, if you wanted it.

Therefore, you should be getting every other weekend, Friday PM til Sunday PM, and up to half school holidays.
I think the real reason is the fact it will reduce your Chld Support, if you exceed 52 nights a year.

What to ask for in school holdiays, is either 4 weeks, or half (6.5 weeks), depending on how much time you can get off work.

3 x 1 week half term. Either normal weekend, or have 2.5 days tagged on, so contact starts or ends on the Wednesday.

Christmas and Easter, 1 weeek, with shared significant days, or turns each.

Summer, you want a 2 week block and either 1 other weekend on the 4 week plan, what might not follow normal timetable as your ex also has the right to a 2 week block for a holiday, or if you want half, 2 x 4 days, or 1 x 8 day block.

You want right to take the child out of the UK for holiday. Your ex needs to show risk of no return, or it will be allowed, normally subject to having to give her some informaton, like filght detail, where staying, who going and an emergancy phone number.

The above order was made in my case, when my Girl was 3.
Posts made by me are my opinion and any factual information should be checked out. If you do not have a Solicitor, often your local CAB can get you some initial advice.
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#3
From what I hear, as a non resident parent you should get half the quality time as a minimum. That is every other weekend, and half the holidays or half terms.

Personally I think fathers should insist on 50/50 if that is practical. Our children deserve that.
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#4
I have 50:50 (now) and have had every single suggestion of a holiday mostly to France refused for one idiotic reason or another. The most recent was that I would abduct the child (on a 4 day trip to France) which I took anyway in my time this summer. She didn't call the police as anyone who genuinely feared an abduction might reasonably have done  despite my giving her all the travel details well in advance (and when times changed). Trips have been objected to on the grounds that one of the children took too many photos which 'proved I wasn't providing an interactive social environment'. Or that they are 'inappropriate'. You should not compromise. Holidays are for children to enjoy. Offer to swap the time and agree to any holiday plans she might have. Say that you are mature enough and your relationship with your child good enough to recognise if you are unable to cope or if you need to return. It is not a competition. If they are nuts they are nuts. Mine is already objecting to my proposals for this summer's hols and my child is much older than yours. In my experience the Court's interpretation of 'not to unreasonably withold permission' does not include the term 'I don't want him to take our child on holiday now that we are separated/divorced' Good Luck.
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#5
I know this is not helping the original poster (MarkR has done that) but i also had a holiday request turned down this morning... to be fair it was her time we had agreed so i wanted a cheeky extra day to make it worth while going ... BUT... this year alone...

requests for changes to days she has requested from me that i have agreed = 10
requests for changes days I have requested from her that she has agreed = 0

I know, I know... going to wait a long time for her to be a co-parent.... don't hold your breathe

PS

To answer the question...Is 2 weeks too much time away for a 4.5 year old from his mother?
No - its fine

Is 2 weeks too much time away for a 4.5 year old from his father according to an alienating mother?
No... its not enoough, it should be more, at least 10 weeks, why do fathers insist in seeing MY child
"Being a good father, for its own sake, does not require your ex to see it or agree"
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#6
xxx

You state in your previous email that your family will be going for 2 weeks, but you plan on flying home with xxxx after 1 week and then fly back on your own to join your family for the second week, do you think i am that gullible? To be honest i do not trust you as it's the biggest load of rubbish i have ever read. 

If you wish to take XXXX abroad to Gran Canaria, Spain for 1 week (7days) in the summer of 2018 i will need the following:

Actual booking confirmation from a reputable travel agents/online agents.

Confirmation from which U.K. airport you and xxxx will be flying from and which airport in Gran Canaria you will arrive at.

Yours and xxxx departure times from the U.K. airport and arrival times at Gran Canaria airport.

Yours and xxxx departure times from Gran Canaria airport and arrival times in the U.K. for the return flight.

Booking confirmation of the resort you will be staying in and also Hotel and board. 


You do not need a passport to book a holiday abroad, aslong as you have the correct spelling of names and correct date of birth on the booking. As for the passport number you can add this on up to 1 week before and you can do this online. 

As for the 1 week in October 2018 and 2 weeks away in the summer of 2019, we are just over two weeks into the new year, i am not discussing this now, we can discuss it nearer the time. I will not have you try and manipulate me into agreeing to something so early on. 


xxxx

Confused

MIAM request in, just me going to get the form for court, so should have this next week.

Court form:-

We currently have a court order in place (Case Number XXXX) with one night a week and every other weekend ordered. 

It was agreed during the last visit to court that we can get XXXX a passport. Despite me handing Miss XXXX the forms to do this, she is stalling and refusing until I agree with her on holidays.

I have approached Miss XXXX about having a holiday with XXXX this Summer. I feel my initial request was fair, but attempted to compromise with her on this. Whilst I have kept everything respectful, the same courtesy has unfortunately not been afforded to me.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to Co-Parent with Miss XXXX, and at this point, I would now like all Holidays to be court ordered, including Easter/Christmas/Half Term and Summer Holidays. I would specifically like two weeks this Summer court ordered, for a large family holiday between 19th July and 3rd August. Unfortunately my dad has been diagnosed with terminal cancer so all of the family are going on this holiday as a last chance to make some great holiday memories before he gets too ill.

Am I missing anything, have I made any mistakes?
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#7
It may be worth making a mention of how and why it is in your child's best interests to go, as that will be a large factor in the judges decision.

Far as I am aware a judge will not grant a holiday if there is a risk of no return for the child (abduction). Perhaps make a small mention of this so your ex cannot use this as a reason to prevent you from what your asking
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#8
Tough mate ... but this is totally normal for someone with 'malicious mother syndrome'... hard luck ... its a big club so welcome!

Sod her ... go for 2 weeks...don't compromise... or she will f*ck you about every year... you will get 2 weeks no worries and will put he back in her box for next time.

You sort of have to provide what she wants anyway... but wait for the judge to tell you what is needed otherwise she will be saying "any reputable" company is not a reputable.... and that will be her next obsession

Take this out "It is becoming increasingly difficult to Co-Parent with Miss XXXX, and at this point,"... otherwise she wins
Change it to "Co-parenting is the best option to parent our child and I continue to look for every opportunity to do that"

You need to be seen as the reasonable one... do not put her down (i know its true) but its about the kid and a holiday with your family that he is entitled to

PS - why don't you get the passport? I renewed my kids ... it needs to be done so as long you don't mind paying... either parent can do it
PPS irrelevant if she trusts you or not

Thinking more... you need to get 2 weeks... if you take 1 next year don't worry, but if you agree to 1 you will struggle to get 2 (from her) every year... get 2 weeks established asap and take the 2 weeks
"Being a good father, for its own sake, does not require your ex to see it or agree"
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#9
I fully agree with LTCDAD with the proviso that you will get the objections anyway whatever and wherever the proposed holiday might be. Too long, too short, too busy, too unprepared, too much of a change from routine etc. etc. The child will miss me too much / Miss out on other children's birthday parties. etc. I have generally found that during, towards the end of every (eventual trip) one or usually both of the children have asked 'Dad, why can't you just ring Mum and tell her we want to stay longer' - and, to try to raise a smile I will meet his/her 'Malicious mother syndrome' and raise it a 'Stockholm alienation syndrome'

With everything else going on this must be stressing you out beyond belief. It is probably adversely impacting on your relationship with your child and your child with you and this may get worse. Discuss it with your doctor. If they can write this letter (there are others) you are prossibly exempted from MIAM.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicatio...c-violence
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#10
(01-19-2018, 01:24 PM)LTCDAD Wrote: Tough mate ... but this is totally normal for someone with 'malicious mother syndrome'... hard luck ... its a big club so welcome!

Sod her ... go for 2 weeks...don't compromise... or she will f*ck you about every year...   you will get 2 weeks no worries and will put he back in her box for next time.

You sort of have to provide what she wants anyway... but wait for the judge to tell you what is needed otherwise she will be saying "any reputable" company is not a reputable.... and that will be her next obsession

Take this out "It is becoming increasingly difficult to Co-Parent with Miss XXXX, and at this point,"... otherwise she wins
Change it to "Co-parenting is the best option to parent our child and I continue to look for every opportunity to do that"

You need to be seen as the reasonable one... do not put her down (i know its true) but its about the kid and a holiday with your family that he is entitled to

PS - why don't you get the passport? I renewed my kids ... it needs to be done so as long you don't mind paying... either parent can do it
PPS irrelevant if she trusts you or not

Thinking more... you need to get 2 weeks... if you take 1 next year don't worry, but if you agree to 1 you will struggle to get 2 (from her) every year... get 2 weeks established asap and take the 2 weeks

I was under the impression that I would need her details/signature and she has the birth certificate.
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