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Are our wives 'the enemy'?
#1
In the past I have hated reading those posts and blogs that refer to our wives as 'the enemy' but I'm starting to think maybe they're right. Are they right and have we got to fight them like an enemy to get any kind of justice for ourselves? There are so many of us on these boards being walked over by our women because they have free rein of their feelings and rules and logic don't seem to mean anything to them. At first it's like being hit by an avalanche of hate and it bowls you over and you feel helpless against it. Are the courts so easily convinced by all these emotional accusations? 
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#2
They aren’t and they never have been. Having an attitude of conflict, whatever the reality of the situation on the ground will get none of us anywhere.

1) every story here, my own included, is one version of the truth.
2) it might feel nice to vent about our exes but actually venting in a confrontational way reinforces that behaviour and makes us hang on to the conflict. Better for everyone to practice letting go of it.
3) we never had any real power in our lives anyway. Nor did our exes. We can piss and moan about life being taken away from us if we like but it doesn’t do any good does it. Better to pick ourselves up, pick up a fellow father having a rough time and keep soldiering in. What else are we going to do?
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#3
Hello

I first started reading posts on this site so I could get some information to help my son through the court process. Eventually, you read so many of these stories that you forget that there may be some couples that actually sort things out without resorting to going to court.

My son was contesting a Non-Molestation Order and I was helping with the statements. I was trying to help him answer her accusations in a reasonable and logical way. But, then she'd stated "He's pure evil". That one stumped me! Smile
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#4
Deep down I know the truth, despite the conflict.

She believes in her bones that she is a better parent [whether true or not] and therefore its logical to her that daughter stays with her.
For her, the means justify the ends. Therefore she genuinely believes the responsibility for all this conflict lies with me. In her eyes I should just accept my position as baby sitter once every two weeks and leave daughter with her to be raised.

We have a specific and fundamental difference in our upbringing, my parents have been married over 50 years, where as, [without judgement] her father left when she was young to start his 5th family, yes 5th.

I have a fierce family loyalty built into my DNA and she has VERY limited experience of a male presence in her life.

Im never going to convince her otherwise, and she is never going to make me a McDonalds Dad. Court was inevitable.
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#5
(04-10-2018, 06:06 AM)Tamagoto Wrote: They aren’t and they never have been. Having an attitude of conflict, whatever the reality of the situation on the ground will get none of us anywhere.

1) every story here, my own included, is one version of the truth.
2) it might feel nice to vent about our exes but actually venting in a confrontational way reinforces that behaviour and makes us hang on to the conflict. Better for everyone to practice letting go of it.
3) we never had any real power in our lives anyway. Nor did our exes. We can piss and moan about life being taken away from us if we like but it doesn’t do any good does it. Better to pick ourselves up, pick up a fellow father having a rough time and keep soldiering in. What else are we going to do?

This is true.  Having an attitude of conflict is not helpful on an interpersonal level.  Ultimately, you have to try to co-exist with this person.

However, during proceedings I viewed my ex as my opponent, in much the same way as I might view someone else I'm playing a game against. I planned out the court case as if it were a military campaign, and thought in terms of outflanking her, wearing her down through attrition, using the element of surprise against her etc.   I used to be an obsessive wargamer and I used things I learned from Carl Von Clausewitz's "On War", and Sun Tzu's "The Art Of War" against her.  

This was effective as she was constantly fighting individual battles (e.g. court hearings) whereas I had a whole campaign planned out.  The result was that by the time we'd got to final hearing, I was in a very strong position and got what I wanted, and she was still throwing silly arguments at me.

BUT - I still didn't view her as an enemy who I hated.  More like an acquaintance who I happen to be playing a very important game against.  I'll go all out to win, but it's not personal.

Even in a real war, eventually you have to make peace and co-exist with the other side.

"War is the continuation of politics by other means."

Regarding her crazy behaviour, accusations etc, I view them as I view the weather. If it's stormy outside, you wrap up warm and wear a coat to protect yourself.  However you don't get angry and shake your fist at the rain, because you know it won't do any good.
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#6
(04-10-2018, 07:24 AM)marwood Wrote:
(04-10-2018, 06:06 AM)Tamagoto Wrote: They aren’t and they never have been. Having an attitude of conflict, whatever the reality of the situation on the ground will get none of us anywhere.

1) every story here, my own included, is one version of the truth.
2) it might feel nice to vent about our exes but actually venting in a confrontational way reinforces that behaviour and makes us hang on to the conflict. Better for everyone to practice letting go of it.
3) we never had any real power in our lives anyway. Nor did our exes. We can piss and moan about life being taken away from us if we like but it doesn’t do any good does it. Better to pick ourselves up, pick up a fellow father having a rough time and keep soldiering in. What else are we going to do?

This is true.  Having an attitude of conflict is not helpful on an interpersonal level.  Ultimately, you have to try to co-exist with this person.

However, during proceedings I viewed my ex as my opponent, in much the same way as I might view someone else I'm playing a game against. I planned out the court case as if it were a military campaign, and thought in terms of outflanking her, wearing her down through attrition, using the element of surprise against her etc.   I used to be an obsessive wargamer and I used things I learned from Carl Von Clausewitz's "On War", and Sun Tzu's "The Art Of War" against her.  

This was effective as she was constantly fighting individual battles (e.g. court hearings) whereas I had a whole campaign planned out.  The result was that by the time we'd got to final hearing, I was in a very strong position and got what I wanted, and she was still throwing silly arguments at me.

BUT - I still didn't view her as an enemy who I hated.  More like an acquaintance who I happen to be playing a very important game against.  I'll go all out to win, but it's not personal.

Even in a real war, eventually you have to make peace and co-exist with the other side.

"War is the continuation of politics by other means."

Regarding her crazy behaviour, accusations etc, I view them as I view the weather. If it's stormy outside, you wrap up warm and wear a coat to protect yourself.  However you don't get angry and shake your fist at the rain, because you know it won't do any good.
If I do something to annoy you Marwood, you go ahead and tell me buddy.
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#7
(04-10-2018, 05:52 AM)Jim Wrote: In the past I have hated reading those posts and blogs that refer to our wives as 'the enemy' but I'm starting to think maybe they're right. Are they right and have we got to fight them like an enemy to get any kind of justice for ourselves? There are so many of us on these boards being walked over by our women because they have free rein of their feelings and rules and logic don't seem to mean anything to them. At first it's like being hit by an avalanche of hate and it bowls you over and you feel helpless against it. Are the courts so easily convinced by all these emotional accusations? 

So Jim

I might not be answering your question exactly, but I don't think so, its like saying soldiers are bad boyfriends or Scots cant be good chefs, these people who let us down and battle us just happen to be our wives, and not all wives are like this, in my case my wife (STBXW) is just a foolish person with very bad judgement, and not my enemy, even though she has done something really quite bad, she doesn't 'fight' me like the enemy.
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#8
That's a really interesting set of posts. Things in them I could relate to closely and in the same post find something I could not agree with. Thus I found a position of my own. Somewhere in the middle. Undecided. Confused.

Tamagoto. I like your posts. I have a background in Buddhism and meditation so I know something of where you're coming from. But something in me says it's great in books but maybe too ideal for this situation. These are real people in real pain and this is about as nasty as real life gets.

Marwood. I'm like you in that I see a lot of things in everyday life in terms of military strategy. Maybe it's reading a lot of military history. It IS in some ways like a game against any other opponent. But I can't say it's not personal because this opponent is my wife. It can't be anything else but personal.

Naive. I know where you're coming from. My wife has always assumed that she is naturally the better parent. Reasonable in all other things she took it for granted and still does. In some ways it led to present situation.

Mr Sandman. Point taken. But common experience is a useful predictor if you're in a novel situation. I thought my own wife and marriage were different and it wouldn't come to this. But as far as I can see she's running par for the course and it's going to turn out much the same as a lot of other people's.

Kate. Hi. Point taken.

Sorry, guys. I hope I'm not coming on like some kind of adjudicator. All those posts really resonated. I've been up most of the night getting ready for a really dirty fight. I learned it's as easy for me to change history as it is for her. Select your facts. Twist them a bit. You can construct a whole new narrative and sound completely reasonable about it. It's there if it comes to it but is it right? I'm stuck right in the middle between Tamagoto and Marwood.
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#9
TBH I don't see a great gap between what me and Marwood said. Don't take things personally, do plan for the long term, do your best to get the outcome you think is best for the children, keep your children's best interests (not your own) front and centre, remember your ex is a person with her own reasons for believing what they are saying, and remember you will have to be on good terms with each other once all this finishes, because you'll be parents for life Smile

Oh and of course, don't get attached to the outcome. Because it might not go your way. Didn't go the way I wanted it to Wink
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#10
This thread raises some interesting points, seeing everyone's views here resonates with me, personally I can see times where I have felt the same way and every combination thereof!

But is she my enemy? Or is she really my adversary?

It could be argued that the difference between the two is tiny. But i see an enemy as someone who seeks to injure me or is something harmful or deadly, someone I hate; compared to an adversary who is someone merely contending, opposing or resisting me, Its not necessary to hate them either because they're just your adversary, simply someone you must go through to reach your ultimate goal.

Given what my ex did to me while we were married she probaby falls into what i would deem as an enemy, she did seek to harm me. But now we're divorced and have no face to face contact, coupled with the nearly 2 years of court battles shes definitely become my adversary because she is the person who stands between me and my goal which is for me to have a meaningful and significant role in our daughters life.

Now it is REALLY hard not to hate my ex, but it gets me nowhere. Think of how much energy it takes to hate something or someone? You can't calmly hate something, at least I can't because hatred is too strong an emotion and hate goes hand in hand with anger.

But an adversary? Or a rival? Much easier to deal with emotionally. I like Marwoods military style planning approach, strategy should be viewed with as little emotion as possible, an angry person makes mistakes!

Naive, I know what you mean when you say your ex will always think she is the better parent, my ex does the same thing. I spend days trying to work out her thought process, the more I presented to court, cafcass and the police about what she did to me (with evidence) the more she was throwing all kinds of allegations at me (with no evidence)

For example, i had to run for my life the night our relationship ended, i had been pushed down the stairs and attacked with scissors. - my version of the events and the truth.

Her interpretation of that night was that fatherhood wasn't for me and I abandon her and our daughter - that's what she believes and that's her version of the truth.

I'll quote this from Lost Highway the David Lynch film because it made me think of my ex's mindset:

"I like to remember things my own way."

"What do you mean by that?"

"How I remembered them. Not necessarily the way they happened."
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