Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Specific issue or prohibited steps?
I posted earlier in the week on behalf of my partner. His ex informed him she is taking their child on holiday. This was with 2 weeks notice.

He has subsequently sent her a letter detailing his thoughts on the matter, how he believes it isn't in the child's best interest at this stage of contact building up, but that he would consent if a compromise was made. He offered a compromise to commence overnights from this week instead of 3 weeks time on her first day home from holiday and explained he felt it would be unsettling to be away from home and her dad for 10 days, to return and commence the first overnight the day after.

She didn't respond to the letter. So when he next collected his daughter he asked her her thoughts. It was recorded on his phone, and I have heard the conversation. To summarise, she accused him of trying to get her to break the contact order by commencing overnights early. She tried to goad him by saying the child lived with her "you just have contact. Access only", to which she knows he does not want (he wants 50/50 shared care). She said she was going anyway and that she could take their daughter away for a month. She refused any compromise at all and just said it was her right to take her away. He left at that point. Her boyfriend came running out the house and shouted at him to fuck off, amongst other things, while he was with his daughter.

So, she has breached the order by refusing contact when he turned up to the agreed contact on fathers day. And she intends to do this again. (She has breached the interim orders as well, but as it has not been contested, no judge is aware of her other varying breaches).

What does he need? Prohibited steps or specific issue? Or both? Please don't advise to just leave it. He has good reason to believe it isn't in his daughters best interest to have contact disrupted at present. He just needs to know procedure now. And does he have to go to court with the forms or something else? Which court? The nearest one? Or does he have to travel all the way to his ex's nearest court where it was previously held? Tried ringing court for advice on the above but they said they can not advise on this or anything else.
I am sorry but I am afraid you are going to have to leave it. The courts are highly unlikely to do anything. Like you said overnights are due to start soon and contact will resume hopefully as normal.

If he was to take her to court and by then she would of been on holiday anyway it is highly likely an ex like that will immediately stop all contact and you running the risk of your partner not seeing children for at least a few months. Hostility will be sky high as well. Don't get me wrong its out of order an unacceptable and a lot of people including myself more than 2 /3 times now have had to put up with this behaviour on regular occasions.

However if overnights do not go ahead as per court order that's the time to return to court and breach her for definite breach. She is also been silly saying that shes breaking court order by allowing overnight early, it is normally up to the mum and you can agree extra time etc if u choose to. I would ask if it is abroad for flight numbers and where they are staying and maybe a phone call so u know his daughter has arrived safe and ok. Her boyfriend should also not be swearing in front of his daughter that is terrible.
She is breaching the order by taking her away. The order is holidays to be agreed between parents with sensible arrangements.

He has his daughter 3 full days a week. She is denying contact for 4 days over the 10 day period.
Unfortunately it doesn't sound like she is breaching as the wording about holidays is vague really - to be agreed between the parents. Although you could argue that this isn't a sensible arrangement I'm not sure that would be enforceable - and a court would want to see you had tried to resolve things and be reasonable.

Completely understand that he has tried that. But if she is going on holiday then you either miss that contact and wait to start the overnights when she comes back - or you try and ask for some extra time when she comes back (as she's not agreeing to start overnights early).

Go with this one, and then if she breaches you enforce the order. Specific issues and prohibited steps aren't for missed contact.

It's annoying and unreasonable but from a parenting point of view - the child is away on holiday. If the child was on holiday with you for a week she wouldnt see her Mother for a week either.

I had something similar - ex took a holiday at short notice cancelling 2 weeks contact and wouldnt agree alternative dates. Even after getting a defined court order I had to accept that - but with more notice.

However if she starts going on holiday four times a year then you'd apply to vary the order as that's unreasonable.

If she had gone on holiday without telling you, that would have been breaching the contact. As it is, it isn't a breach, it's just unreasonable (I think). The best thing your partner could do is agree in writing to this holiday, on the basis he has an extra day with daughter just before ex goes and when she returns. If she won't agree to any extra time (and make sure that's in writing) then keep a note of that for the next issue.
I would honestly leave it. They will highly unlikely do anything about it. Any incline his ex gets of court proceedings all contact could be stopped immediately, with potentially loads of made up allegations and risks that never happened.

As long as overnight stays start when she gets back you just got to reluctantly accept it. Its really not that simple taking someone to court for a breach and will cost you a lot of money.
You would have a lot more success if contact was stopped completely rather than what she has done now. the most she would get after you spent thousands of pounds is a telling off.

Your partner could try mediation or after she comes back from holidays and things calm down to have a chat with each other that notice should be given if she is going away and days should be made up or even that your partner could take a holiday in uk for 5-7 days himself.

And don't worry we all know on here what she is doing is UNREASONABLE and to annoy your partner. I have had issues with holidays,birthdays and Christmas/fathers day for last 4 years now.

They only behave like this as they know how to press buttons and to cause disruption in your life
He has no court costs as no current income. He is considering a legal aid application, as he has proof of domestic violence from the police and obviously no income. He just doesn't want to delay it by applying for it and waiting for it to be accepted. He wants to go ahead now unrepresented. She also knows he is taking it back to court after the fathers day fiasco - for a more explicit order.

She hasn't yet made any false allegations, despite all her other behaviour, she hasn't accused him of anything. He isn't worried about taking it back in the sense of retaliation. She is much more likely to be verbally abusive and aggressive, as is her boyfriend.

I understand what you are saying, but he wants to make her think twice in future. She is the kind of person who will say there's a holiday every single time the kids are off school. He needs to prevent this.
If this is your partners 1st overnight stay where he gets his daughter to stay when she gets back from holiday you really need to leave it. I would get overnight up and running and later explain amicably that what she did was wrong so next time she does it the correct way. If she don't allow overnight backs when she gets by all means return straight back to court.

My ex actually took 2 holidays in space of 1 month . In family court she told them about 1 holiday when she left building she said I am away in 3 weeks as well I'm going abroad for week.
I complained calmly she phoned police on me and said she phone courts next day as they know . I was so angry and annoyed although didn't show it but let it go as no choice, I missed birthday , fathers day and Christmas that year too. only time I went back to court if contact stopped completely.

I think she only took 2 holidays as I had been granted overnight stays as well and its her way of getting one over on me by telling me at short notice. Police luckily I rang them 1st and gave them a full briefing about what she done and she likes to phone up to make false allegations so never heard nothing. this is only a little bit I been through , its 100 x worse but I wont go into it lol
What you need to do right now is start a timeline. In the left column - the date of the occurence and then tab it to a larger column with a brief line of what happened.


5th May Agreed arrangements for collection on Father's day by email
16th May Informed daughter would not be coming for Father's Day next day
10th July Informed by Mrs Ex she would be taking daughter on holiday for two weeks over period when overnight stays were due to start.

12th July Emailed Mrs Ex to try to arrange alternative dates for missed contact due to holiday. Unable to achieve agreement. Proposed that overnight stays would begin on x date on her return from holiday.

That is all you need for now. If she comes back and overnight stays don't start (ie next contact is cancelled) add that to the timeline and apply to enforce the current order. You would use C79 form (I think - someone else would know). As your current order is quite recent it might be a bit soon to apply for a variation just yet and they would expect both of them to have tried to agree a new schedule at mediation first anyway. In a year or so though he could use form C100 to apply for a variation for more time, if she won't agree and you've tried mediation.

Completely understand how angry it can make you and frustrated being played with like this but the courts don't like snap reactions and they like to see you have tried to resolve issues reasonably.

Your partner needs to always be the reasonable one and polite in communications or they will end up being tarred with the same brush. So it's reasonable to accept this holiday in lieu of a day extra at the beginning and end of the holiday and then overnights starting. It's not reasonable for her to refuse any time in lieu but not an enforceable matter. But you are building a pattern of her behaviour and attitude in the timeline.

However if there is another breach then don't hesitate to enforce. If you dont enforce after a second or third breach it's seen as accepting a new situation. Do everything in writing re arrangements and agreements - either email or text. Or if it's verbal, confirm in writing afterwards.

Specific issues order would be if your partner wanted to go on holiday and it had been agreed in advance and she then said no. So it would be over that specific holiday. As it is her taking a holiday it is a case of varying contact times by agreement - despite the fact she is imposing this on you - holidays are always seen as important.

So if your partner wrote - I agree to your holiday from x date to x date and miss xy and z dates contact, on the basis that daughter spends x day with me before you go and x day with me when you return and overnight contact then begins on x date instead of y date.

That way neither of them has breached the order - because its agreed in writing and is part of normal flexibility. If she writes back refusing the extra time, print out the message and file it with the timeline as it shows her unreasonability and attitude towards contact time. You may need that if and when she breaches an actual regular contact day/week-end.
Charlie it wont let me message you back. cant send u PM

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Specific Issue Order mmacleod73 3 4,230 11-09-2018, 10:26 PM
Last Post: marwood
  Next steps if ex does not adhere to prohibited steps order grayzo123 2 3,126 07-27-2018, 11:37 PM
Last Post: Charlie7000
  MIAM's and Prohibited Steps Order Grupetto 1 2,934 08-29-2017, 08:10 PM
Last Post: MarkR
  PSO - Prohibited Steps Order AnomDad 4 6,526 06-22-2017, 02:43 AM
Last Post: MarkR
  Prohibited steps order sutty72 3 5,919 02-11-2017, 04:52 PM
Last Post: MarkR
  C100 - Non molestation & prohibited steps curlyfryz 1 4,213 01-17-2017, 11:06 PM
Last Post: Frisbos
  What to do? Child Arrangments order or Specific Issue Order? JonseyGW17 3 8,519 04-28-2016, 11:55 AM
Last Post: MarkR

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)